4am, they won't open the door...

Yes I was reffering to myself. Sorry about that.

lol..y'all relax....Scott knew that, he's just yanking y'alls chain...Gotta get used to Southern sarcasm/humour.....

_________________
River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601

I agree that you did the right thing, Scott. Whether we have the right or not, we don't kick in a door. If LE is on site, we always defer to them. would much prefer that they take the risks if they are willing. Now if the door is cracked open... what's a little nudge to see more ?

My only question is if LE saw the person enter, or had your visual confirmation that the person had entered, could they not have gotten a search warrant? I know it's difficult in the middle of the night, but depending on the area, mayby possible? But since you couldn't posivitely ID the skip, maybe it wasn't enough. I guess it depends on how badly LE and the Judge wants a look inside.

We are not under statutory obligation to notify LE when we are hitting a house, but our locals have requested that we do so. 99% of the time they show up for us, even if we are originally told they are unavailable. They simply like to be involved when they know we are armed, and we always are. They take a backup position and only take control if a problem arises. Ironically, they let us do the transport to the jail, even though an LEO has to run warrants and file the arrest report. Some BEA's and bondsmen take offense if LE wants to do the transport, and in some cases they do for whatever reason. In that case, we follow them to the jail, bet our body receipt and go happily on our way. I don't care who gets credit for putting the person in jail as long as I get my body receipt and the bond is exonerated. The only time this is an issue, is if a bondsman doesn't want to pay you (you always include "affecting the arrest" in your contractual agreement) or if you are under statutory limits whereby the bondsman or his/her agent has to affect the apprehension in order to get a remission on the bond.

In some counties if we bring them in, we have to fill out the report and sign as the arresting officer, do the inventory receipts, and other paperwork, even though we are only enforcing a civil contract, not actually making an "arrest" per se. In those counties it is easier on us to allow LE to take them in and do the paperwork. We can still get our body receipt or in-custody receipt without spending all the extra time involved. One such county even has their jail roster online, so we can go in, pull up the defendant, print out the page, and submit it with our discharge request. Two minutes online versus about an hour or more at the jail? Hell yeah, I'll let LE take them in anytime.

_________________
Kathy Blackshear
Blackshear Investigations
Blackshear Bail Bonds
Sales Associate, Prepaid Legal Services, Inc.
Walsenburg, CO

Proud Member of the AB Reject Club

Kathy,
You are so right! Fill out the top 14 and sign the bottom, you brought him in, I didn't!

We did get our guy, it seems he got paranoid, thought he was being followed and wrecked into a guard rail!

Amazing how that happens!

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

thanks for the clarify...

you mentioned PD "entering" using us as a "no warrant needed" situation... Never done that

On a serious note... if PD were doing a "stand-by" and the citizen saw them first, legally (criminally or pertaining to civil rights) would it really matter if all paperwork was in order, you were there with a valid FTA warrant, PD was just "standing by" for safety (standard protocol) and you entered their dwelling?

Sorry for the nit-picking type questions but I just want to understand...
I have saw multiple postings on this forum that made reference to "If PD shows up things change", like must read miranda, etc. Not that I doubt the postings... I just can't see how that would affect anything since they are unrelated for the most part... civil / vs. PD actions. If they are present for "safety reasons" how can the skip use any civil rights violation law if each party acted accordingly?
And the multiple mentioning of Miranda????
For the life of me I can't see where that fits in to what we do... PD present or not. We don't usually care if they make any statements to whatever... since we are lodging them for the FTA warrant and not investigating them for any crime which they would be appearing in court. If PD showed up doing a stand-by, I still don't see where Miranda would come into play. They wouldn't be interrogated by PD for any "open criminal act". Maybe in Michigan its different. Sorry... just trying to understand.

Terry

Terry
the people inside the house behind the closed door do not know why the police are there, or the relationship between BEA's and the police.

If they see them, they have every right to believe that the police are in charge, because they are.

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

Hi Scott,

I can see that they may think it is PD matter if they see them outside. I just don't see where that would matter... (in my area anyway). If I had an FTA warrant I should be expecting "someone" to show up eventually. If PD were outside doing a standby, and BEAs were at my door..... If I thought everyone was PD, FBI etc.... how would that affect my warrant. The BEA's would still be able for enter to get me if I was at my listed address. If I swore up and down that they were police/feds etc.. I would still be handcuffed and lodged at the county.

It's probably a regional thing which is why I don't understand, sorry
Around here it really doesn't matter, unless of course PD has another warrant and wants to enter to get them themselves. As far as fugitives rights, miranda etc... it doesn't really matter what they "think" as most of them are stupid anyway

If it did make any difference whatsoever (around here), then they would be using that in court on every apprehension.

If PD goes in with us (happens occasionally, especially if I know them) it still doesn't matter. If the skip asks whats up, PD just says "ask them" or tells them that we have a warrant. And if asked, they'll say they are just doing a standby.

Maybe its just "loose" like that around here??? Its just hard for me to understand how PD being present "in case anything would go wrong" would affect any BEA apprehension legally in any way.

Don't mean to beat a dead horse... so I'll end it here

Terry

Terry
There are lots of places where there is existing law, yet unapplied. Laws governing a civil bail contract, bail arrest powers etc. are not taught in police academies. What my supposition was to intend was to teach the truth about what your exposure is. It does not mean that we haven't got away with something due to the ignorance of others. As bail issues become more prominent in courts and newspapers, we need to be even more cognizant of our rules of engagement. Sitting in jail on Federal charges lamenting about how many times you have done it before is not going to open the gate.

I ask them to stay out of site. When I had a barricade situation one time, and called in the police for backup (State said they don't chase bondsmen, County sent one guy) I was informed that they can't make entry. I told the police officer he could if the owner of the home invited him in, and she did.

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

Terry.

What is so difficult to understand ?...Colour of Law has been explained repeatedly on this forum...I know you are trained and intelligent, so I am confused where the difficulty with your comprehension on this matter lies.

I'll stated as simply as I know How:

1) you arrive with bail warrant.

2) you announce yourself.

3) You apprehend subject minus leo presence. Matter stays as a civil private party issue.

Now, add leo presence:

1) you have a bail warrant, piece, etc.

2) you announce/ID.

3) Subject sees Leo. Subject begins dealing with Leo, deferring to thier assumed command authority, thereby placing themselves under the leo's authority, regardless of what the leo's may be telling them.

4) Leo's cannot enforce bail pieces. Now, if they have the original criminal or bench warrant, and they are there to take person into custody while you are a mere observer and staying out of the way, then you surrender your bond at the jail, thereby exonerating yourself or the client, that's a different scenario.

5) To have a subject surrenderring to you in the direct presence of a leo, identifies you as a government actor, giving the fugitive the idea that you are somehow connected to a law enf agency. Again this is misleading and illegal.

The bottom line is this: it is not wise to have leo's physically present while doing your knocking and announcing.

Some other adverse side effects: You locate the skip, notify the leo's, they beat you to the door on the bench warrant, take custody, book, etc. Then a judge can rule that since you did not make the arrest, they can deny the request for exoneration and still forfiet the bond. I have seen this happen.

Another side effect, You notify leo's of a high profile case, a bored or hungry leo jumps the gun and shows up, thereby spoiling your strategy or surveillance, the fugitive spooks and ghosts on you. There went all of your intel money, surveillance and travel time, not to mention your actual skip. I have seen this happen as well. We notified a S.O we were going to strike a high profile case out in the desert, a bored rookie looking for excitement raced to our location, arriving before we did, and the fugitive ran before we were even in the neighborhood.

Lastly, if a leo involves themselves in your case, they then submit not only themselves personally to litigation, but thier respective dot. as well.

A case in point: Just last year a well known and professional BEA thought he had located a difficult hispanic female skip there in NJ. he did everything by the numbers: he checked in with the local pd, they sent a unit with them to the house, the officer went to the door with them, the female answered the door, same name, same physical attributes, etc. The cop even positively ID'd her from the picture the BEA's had. The BEA's apprehended her, took her to the jail, where it was finally proven she indeed was not thier fugitive through fingerprints. Everyone, including the officer, simply left her there at the PD station to fend for herself. Last I heard, the officer had been fired and a lawsuit was pending.

Take that scenario and delete the leo's involvement, he would still have his job, and the dpt would not have been sued.

I hope you finally grasp this concept now...if you don't then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

_________________
River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601

1 additional negative aspect of involving leo's, especially in small, rural areas, is that the leo may be related or even involved with your skip and will give you some official reason to delay your action, while at the same time they are warning the skip to flee.

Doesn't happen often, but it is a small possibility.

_________________
River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601