It is currently Sat 23 Nov 2024 19:59 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
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Kilo
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Post subject: Re: Weapons  Posted: Sat 21 Aug 2010 04:33 |
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Joined: Wed 18 Aug 2010 09:19
Posts: 9
Location: VALLEJO CALIFORNIA
FRN Agency ID #: 0
Experience: 3 - 5 years
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Sam Sartain [R2T] wrote: I have had extensive experience in Afghanistan with treating gun-shot wounds from:
7.62x39mm (AK-47 and RPK variants)
5.56x45mm (M-16/M-4/M-249)
9x19mm (Beretta M9)
7.62x51mm (M-240/Mk-48/M-14/M-24)
7.62x54mm (Dragunov SVD/PKM)
Fact of the matter is standard ball or full-metal jacket ammunition will often times not put someone down or really out of the fight unless a direct shot to the heart or nervous system is achieved. Another bad concept of these ammunitions is they tend to pass straight through tissue unless they are stopped by bone or thick muscle. Most of the wounds I have encountered by the first three calibers listed the entry is about the size of a dime and the exit is usually the size of a quarter to half-dollar using ball or FMJ ammo. The last two calibers are good with any type of ammunition mostly just due to the velocity and bullet weight, but is it really practical for us to carry even a SOCOM (compact M-14)?....
Now, to apply this to the civilian world
It is quite possible you could find yourself in a Close-Quarters Battle inside of a parking lot, home or apartment complex. Any of these situations is NOT a good place for "solid" or non-expanding ammunition. I use Speer Gold Dot 124gr Gold Dot Hollow Points. They cost $29 for a box of 20 (They are not PLINKING rounds, they are the top of the line PERFORMANCE rounds). If you are using a 9mm I would recommend larger bullet loads such as the 124grain or 147 grain because you get more impact energy on the target. 124 grain offers the middle ground for 9mm loads for both velocity and impact. They are not prone to over-penetration under any circumstances and usually the load of most police agencies that use 9mm.
Granted you want to engage your target, but you MUST consider what is behind your target and what could possibly be behind your target. You want to preserve the lives of your colleagues, citizens and yourself.
Pistol selection:
I tried out a number of firearms when I went to select my sidearm Ruger, FN, Beretta, Walther, Kimber, Springfield, Glock, CZ...
The sidearm I settled on after spending a good 3 hours of checking features and seeing how it fit my hand, balance...
I found a SIG Sauer P225 was the best choice for what I wanted. It has a reasonable caliber (9mm) which ammunition is readily available and comes with many options for loads. It only has a single-stack 8 round magazine (single stack magazine weapons are easier to conceal), but I do carry two spare magazines. I baught it standard with Tritium night-sights for low-light shooting, comes standard for both single and double-action, has NO manual safety but comes standard with a "de-cocking" lever to prevent AD, and is one of the best 9mm handguns I have ever used.
Find what fits you, set down and think about what you want and then go find it...KNOW what you want before you go to a gun store... Very good post!
_________________
JESSE RAINES / BRIAN FISHER
ALL AMERICAN RECOVERY
PC 1299 COMPLIANT
925-435-4800
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speezack
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Sat 21 Aug 2010 15:09 |
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| in memoriam |
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Joined: Fri 02 Mar 2007 10:51
Posts: 5055
Location: South Central Virginia
FRN Agency ID #: 1474
Experience: More than 10 years
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First, I concur... excellent information from someone that should know....
Sam, what can I say... first, I don't think there are a many reading this site that have a clue what you and others like you have been through. I served in the Marines many years ago but I do not have the CIB... I was actually in before Nam... but to comment a bit on your post.
I quite often inject a bit of humor to get a point across or get past something we are discussing lightly but in no way do I take the actual application of weapons training lightly... I think the average reader here is looking for information in 3 ways... IMHO... he is a casual reader simply curious about this business, he is a serious reader seeking advise and information about the possibility of entering this business or he is a cowboy looking to play a game or acquire a quick pass to this business that he might perceive as exciting based on his TV viewing or movie going... I figure that is the spread on who looks at this... one or maybe a combination of several of those 3... anyway, what I am saying is that many, not necessarily most, but many do not have a clue about calibers, penetration, physical makeup of the round... and all the other aspects that go into this type of discussion.
What I generally do is try and keep it light and simple (KISS principle). There are so many aspects that can be delved into here that it has over the years,,,, not just on this site but all over the 'net' become a very intricate web of misinformation and sometimes too much information for the average person to comprehend....
I collect firearms, I have been an avid hunter for over 35 years and shoot regularly... I have reloaded for a veriety of weapons including shotgun, pistol calibers, rifle calibers and black powder, I have also shot with several teams in different weapons applications... I have not, as mentioned, been in combat although I did receive extensive Marine training as we all did in the day, with all sorts of weapons... and that is something that I cannot provide any info on but the application here, in my opinion, is not the same... at least not from the standpoint of these readers. You and most other military men and women have been trained over a long period of time to react in a particular manner when confronted with a threat. That is probably something that not many here will ever be faced with and trying to explain how it feels or what they should do is something they very likely cannot fathom, since they number one, have not been trained like you and number two, will very likely never find themselves in that situation.
So, anyway, I stay simple, use humor and try and point out some very, very basic procedures, rules and only a couple of things for a person to remember or try and relate to so that they can get a basic handle on the weapons questions that they have.
I bow to your expertise on every aspect of the weapons you have mentioned. When I went through Paris Island, I qualified with an M-1 Garrand, a 1911 .45 and a Browning... BAR... and a rifle grenade came off the end of the M-1 not out of a M-79 (or whatever you guys use now...) those were what we had at the time. Now you know my age.... again, I will thank you for what you have done for this country and please continue to post on here because you are so far above the mark here that we can all learn from your info.
I will continue to tell funny little tales and try and inject solid info from my lower level of expertise but I will leave the in depth discussions and clarification of the techy stuff to you and guys like you... thanks again.
_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222
"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"
"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"
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Sam Sartain [R2T]
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Sun 22 Aug 2010 01:52 |
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Joined: Mon 16 Aug 2010 14:44
Posts: 36
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
FRN Agency ID #: 3341
Experience: < 1 year
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Damn, I haven't heard the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) in a while... you do have a very valid point though, it is hard to describe the complexity of human emotions and reactions to a gun fight. It is very much difficult to train someone without them ever feeling the snap of a round past their cranium indeed.
I have had the pleasure of using an M-1 Garand when I was a young boy. I was too young to know about the clip, so when the last round fired I wasn't expecting something to fly out and hit me in the forehead...I screamed and dropped the very heavy rifle on my foot and screamed again; and to this day my great-uncle still hasn't let me live that down. I couldn't imagine and to this day still can't imagine what it was like for him being in the Ardennes Forest when all he could hear quote: "A wall of diesel engines coming closer through the fog".
I have great respect for you and anyone else who has ever held steel in their hand in defense of this country, war or no war.
Sam
P.S. I like the six P's : Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance...
and who says you don't learn nifty things in the military
S.N.A.F.U.
F.U.B.A.R.
B.O.H.I.C.A.
it's a whole different language..lol
_________________ Samuel "Sam" Sartain
Rapid Response Team "R2T"
Fugitive Recovery Agent
State of Colorado
(920) 574-1991
De Scelestus Vindico (Latin: "Punish the Wicked")
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speezack
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Sun 22 Aug 2010 07:00 |
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| in memoriam |
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Joined: Fri 02 Mar 2007 10:51
Posts: 5055
Location: South Central Virginia
FRN Agency ID #: 1474
Experience: More than 10 years
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Quote: I found a SIG Sauer P225 was the best choice for what I wanted. It has a reasonable caliber (9mm) which ammunition is readily available and comes with many options for loads. It only has a single-stack 8 round magazine (single stack magazine weapons are easier to conceal), but I do carry two spare magazines. I baught it standard with Tritium night-sights for low-light shooting, comes standard for both single and double-action, has NO manual safety but comes standard with a "de-cocking" lever to prevent AD, and is one of the best 9mm handguns I have ever used. I just reread you post... funny, my soninlaw... who happens to be out of country just now, left some of his weapons here for me to keep for him till he gets back... I hadn't even looked in his weapons bag... but today, I did and guess what... inside was a Sig P225 and 6 loaded mags.... so he must have called you for advice...  I think I'll take it out to my buddies house and give it a try... I have a good friend, much younger than me... who is also a former Marine... (you know how some of us are really gung ho!!!) well, he is ate up with it and has a shooting range behind his house where he practices almost daily... I go out there sometimes and rag on him about it... he is gearing up for the revolution and between the two of us... we should be able to take out 2 or 3 hundred before they get us.... That reminded me of the story of the two rednecks from Alabama (now don't anyone call me on that) who went to Afghanistan because they heard that there was a bounty on the Taliban and you could get $500 for a set of ears?!! (remember those stories?)... anyway, they were asleep under the stars one nite... one woke up and looked around and they were surrounded by over 500 Taliban fighters pointing guns at them.... he woke up his buddy and said............... "Hey Ralph.... wake up.... were rich!"... now that is having a positive attitude............. ya think?  
_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222
"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"
"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"
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AcaciaCon
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Sun 22 Aug 2010 11:29 |
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Joined: Thu 17 Jun 2010 20:14
Posts: 83
Location: Sacramento, CA
FRN Agency ID #: 0
Experience: < 1 year
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Sam Sartain [R2T] wrote: Damn, I haven't heard the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) in a while...
<clip>
B.O.H.I.C.A.
it's a whole different language..lol I hadn't heard BOHICA in a while! To stay on topic. I love my Walther P99. After reading this though, I think I'm going to look for something a little less expensive to use for work. Those Sigs do look nice.
_________________
Demian Ross
Acacia Consulting Group
916.241.FIND(3463)
1.877.556.3678
California PC1299 Compliant Fugitive Recovery
Process Serving
Mobile Notary
Security Consulting
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Sam Sartain [R2T]
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Sun 22 Aug 2010 18:54 |
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Joined: Mon 16 Aug 2010 14:44
Posts: 36
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
FRN Agency ID #: 3341
Experience: < 1 year
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Speezack...your son-in-law has good taste in firearms
_________________ Samuel "Sam" Sartain
Rapid Response Team "R2T"
Fugitive Recovery Agent
State of Colorado
(920) 574-1991
De Scelestus Vindico (Latin: "Punish the Wicked")
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KARMA
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Sun 22 Aug 2010 19:26 |
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Joined: Mon 14 Feb 2005 10:59
Posts: 7563
Location: Arkansas
FRN Agency ID #: 340
Experience: More than 10 years
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Now yall know I ain' got no guns. I am stock piling rocks . . .and I hear that shoes are an especially harsh weapon of choice
_________________
Do not consider anything for your interest which makes you break your word, quit your modesty, or inclines you to any practice which will not bear the light, or look the world in the face .... Marcus Antonius
I AM Some Folks "KARMA" and A MODERATOR @ FRN
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SnoWolf
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Mon 23 Aug 2010 05:04 |
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Joined: Tue 12 Dec 2006 17:33
Posts: 1611
Location: Sharpsburg, Georgia
FRN Agency ID #: 1999
Experience: 7 - 10 years
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LuVonda wrote: 8) Now yall know I ain' got no guns. I am stock piling rocks . . .and I hear that shoes are an especially harsh weapon of choice Ask our previous President.....He has first hand experience.
_________________
********************
Thomas SnoWolf
FRN# 1999
GAPB 20120726
NSIS ST0707
http://www.rocksolidrg.com
"The hero is not the man that acts without fear,
He is the man that acts inspite of fear"
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speezack
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Mon 23 Aug 2010 06:10 |
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| in memoriam |
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Joined: Fri 02 Mar 2007 10:51
Posts: 5055
Location: South Central Virginia
FRN Agency ID #: 1474
Experience: More than 10 years
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LuVonda wrote: 8) Now yall know I ain' got no guns. I am stock piling rocks . . .and I hear that shoes are an especially harsh weapon of choice Now you know I was gonna jump you on that one Miss L............... SHOES...?............. SHOES....?........ there ain't no shoes in Arkansas............ you must be talking about imports............. 
_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222
"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"
"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"
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Mdbtyhtr
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Post subject: Re: Weapons Posted: Mon 23 Aug 2010 07:58 |
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Joined: Thu 06 Jul 2006 14:22
Posts: 3982
Location: Maryland and Virginia
FRN Agency ID #: 455
Experience: More than 10 years
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I am a fan of a wrist rocket for self defense and I hunt with a Buick...
Scott
_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III
"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"
Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)
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