Who screwed up??

Scott,you are correct once again.My post was not intended to belittle Mr. Grantham but i did want to stress the point that his actions should not be repeated in that sort of circumstance again.With or without regulations on bail enforcement in his state.Just constructive criticism and hopefully Mr. Grantham does not take offense and takes it for what it is,just someones opinion that is hoping to help in his learning and further education.
I also would like to hear how his team critique themselves on this case.

_________________
Jay Crawford
Eagle Eye Fugitive Recovery
"based out of Bethpage Tn."
Cell:(931)551-5020

Jay
My response was not directed at you, but all of us, including myself. This group has sorta of gotten a reputation of being brutal on newbies. In retrospect, we need to find a way to communicate the truth without offending anyone. If that does not work, or my perception is wrong, ya'll let me have it!

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

I'll attempt to stay on point.

a) Use of lethal force in defense of self or a third party is pretty much standardized across the country in federal statutes . Wording may vary, state by state, but we have the legal and moral obligation and ability to protect ourselves from grave bodily injury or death.

b) When in fear of your life or the life of another, you act to STOP THE THREAT, only. There's no warning shot in the air, there's no trying to shoot the weapon out of the threat's hand and there's no shooting in the leg (or back of the knee as in the original post) in hopes the threat will cease his aggressive actions. You keep shooting until the threat is STOPPED. If the badguy dies as a result of HIS actions...oh well. Sucks to be him.

c) When encountering a subject who may be armed with a lethal weapon, of course you'll need to have access to lethal weapons as well. Bring a gun to a gun fight, as the old saying goes. Your (or your agency's) use of force continuum (you do have a written, established use of force policy...right?) needs to be as fully complimented as possible. That can/should include verbal judo, OC spray and/or pepper balls, TASER and/or baton or asp, and finally, firearms...not necessarily deployed in that order...and with end-user certifications on file for each tool you and your team members carry.

d) Some of us, here, after having read any number of lame-stream-media accounts of TASER 'related' in-custody deaths have swallowed the kool-aid and are disproportionately 'a-skeered' of TASER's. I may have been as well, had I not chosen to become MUCH more familiar with this extraordinary tool. The pile of data (and, IIRC, around 60 summary dismissals of lawsuits against TASER in the last few years) contradicts the media's biased reporting of the tragic and often chemical induced, excited delirium, occuring-while-in-custody-sometimes-hours-after-the-application-of-TASER deaths.

The point being...

e) Had our original poster been trained in the use of the TASER and properly trained in the use of firearms, he would have had both tools available among his team members. A TASER would have precluded the need to go 'hands-on' with the subject. If the subject presented with lethal force then another team member whould have been there with lethal force as back-up.

Professional regards.
David Platt
aka: Bailagent100

" I would have just had my 3 Navy Seal friends waiting for him in my office while I sat at my desk with a glass of ice tea..."

Speezack, I gotta say... As much as my inner child would have enjoyed dishin' out a smackdown on the SIQ, my more seasoned, busted up, tired and slow-to-heal side has a definite appreciation for your approach!

Cheers, bro! (insert clinking ice tea glasses sound here)

_________________
Doug DiNatale Bail Bonds
Vienna, MO
(573) 368-6672

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

I thought of another story, the first time I met my boss (the senior agent/"Jedi Master")...

"So you want to get into this industry, can I show you something?"

"Yeah sure"

"Have you arrested anyone before?"

"Yeah, overseas we -"

"Cuffed them by yourself..."

"Oh, no."

"Oh, well let me show you this...Hey, are you Ben?"

"Yeah - " I took his extended hand. Before my brain could comprehend what had just happened he had my wrist locked behind my back and myself in a position not to move without causing more pain to myself. My other arm was NOT in a position to grab anything because I was too busy trying to figure out to evade his death grip. I've practiced, practiced, and practiced this move...finally I'm now able to use it even without the handshake - just grab and go.

*Sigh*...the joys of being the rookie: learning new and painful things. It was the most interesting job interview I've ever had (and thank God for!). I prefer this over the guns and such now - much more effective - and it is much safer.

_________________
There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything. - From the Hagakure

All have covered this subject so well that all I have is comic relief (and I agree with statements made by "the regulars):

Navy SEALs are great to use....so long as they can find where they are supposed to be (LOL; And I love my squid brothers)

Ben's use of AR15/M4 is different than most.....he is overly qualified for these "beginners" weapons.

But seriously, Scott, David, Bill, and the rest make valid and correct points. This could have been handled in so many different ways.....many would have been less of a liability.

_________________
********************
Thomas SnoWolf
FRN# 1999
GAPB 20120726
NSIS ST0707
http://www.rocksolidrg.com
"The hero is not the man that acts without fear,
He is the man that acts inspite of fear"

tough . . . The Industry CANNOT AFFORD for US to be any less than what we are

_________________


Do not consider anything for your interest which makes you break your word, quit your modesty, or inclines you to any practice which will not bear the light, or look the world in the face .... Marcus Antonius

I AM Some Folks "KARMA" and A MODERATOR @ FRN

Luvonda,
I understand your point and that the general public does not differentiate between new and veteran actors in our industry. My point is that we have the opportunity and responsibility to educate not just the errant actor, but the remainder that read and lurk. If we land hard on the initial actor, they become defensive instead of receptive, and go away from this site, and very likely continue their errant behavior that will eventually tarnish this industry. We will lose either way. I was merely suggesting a change in mind set so that we can have a positive influence and reach the individuals that are mislead, untrained, or delusional.

Scott and congrats

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

K . . . I will TRY to be nicer

_________________


Do not consider anything for your interest which makes you break your word, quit your modesty, or inclines you to any practice which will not bear the light, or look the world in the face .... Marcus Antonius

I AM Some Folks "KARMA" and A MODERATOR @ FRN

I think it was Josy Wales that said... "a mans got to know his limitations..."

I know mine.

added later............... : Scott, you never cease to amaze me with your insight and wisdom... wish that we could all step back and evaluate as you obviously do... listen people, this guy has a wealth of damn good advice and we need to listen...

... having said that.................. "Scott, you are still ugly and your mother dresses you funny.... I can't decide between you, Marshall or DSI, which is the leader of that group... "

_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"